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Phanman

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About Phanman

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  1. Yes sir, I know how that author-blindness can go; we tend to see what we meant to say because that's in our brain, rather than what we actually typed. All I can say is thanks to you and Berti for taking the time!
  2. Hey, now this is a great read. The annotated formulae are an especially nice touch, and they allow the reader to follow perfectly. As a result of being able to follow perfectly, I can point out with certainty that there are a couple errors under the Double Attack section; the flat ATK modifying cards aren't included in some of the actual formula numbers, though the results of the cards are correctly included in the RESULTS of the formulas. (The annotation contributes towards the reader not being misled by that incidental omission, but on the contrary being able to spot it for himself.) (Basically, the leftmost numbers ended up leaving out the flat atk cards in some of the probably MANY mind-numbing copy-pastings that would have been necessary to create such a thorough explanation.) This is so both in the Double Attack flat ATK section, and the Double Attack Percentage Damage section. ________ In the "settled facts" there is a VERY slight mis-statement; it means to say that equipping percentage-damage equipment or compounding percentage-damage cards on mainhand OR offhand weapon will only affect the main hand; as it is right now however, it just talks first about compounding percentage-damage cards on the MAIN hand weapon, doesn't mention the OFF-hand weapon at all at first, and only later goes on to state what was really determined with the "regardless" etc.
  3. Phanman

    Art Dump

    In Iduna your bard can probably Bragi .... probably. : D
  4. If you do the tutorial I believe you get some equipment at the end of it. Dunno if it includes a weapon, but it probably does. I say that because I always end up with the novice eggshell, and since I hate how it looks, I'd never willingly have bought it.
  5. From a search for item script "bdelayrate" on our handy-dandy database, I don't see any worthwhile way to do it. Garuda hat decreases after cast delay by 3%. But it takes up Kaho's slot, so don't bother with it. And 3% improvement won't ELIMINATE that 1 second delay at all. Heart-wing headband is better, but also takes up kaho slot, and is only 2% better anyway; also trash. Angry mouth similarly decreases delay by about 3%, and DOESN'T take up Kaho's slot, but I have no idea how to get it anyway. Expert Rings reduce cast delay by 5% each, but are transcendent only. USELESS to gunglingers. I wasn't able to find anything useful this time, but searching the database can sometimes be rewarding! Finding the script can often be done by putting in the desired quality in the item-description box, finding the relevant script, and then searching that way. Sometimes the script produces a lot more results! .... And sometimes the searches fall flat on their faces. It's kinda sad. When Iduna is implemented Bragi may become a more viable option again, depending on what they fiddle with, but that's less gear and more "getting a bard to help."
  6. Shout-outs to people who enjoy making the game better : D
  7. I have no idea whatsoever where (0.29-0.07*Off Hand Skill Level) came from, so you lost me there : O Additionally that seems to result in multiplying by a negative value at off-hand skill level 5, since you'd be multiplying by( 0.29 minus 0.35), ie negative 0.06 so... I may be misunderstanding what the formula is saying there. _____________ But regarding the earlier formula, I had been talking about a correct elemental attack vs level 1 defence (eg jujube in off-hand vs a poring) and comparing it with a neutral weapon of the same or very similar ATK in the off-hand, to see which one gave more damage, at levels 1 or 2 of Left Hand Mastery. (Or even such a weapon in the main hand with level 0 right hand mastery) Against elemental defence level 3, like the soccer balls, the multiplier remains positive so it would be beneficial as compared with a neutral weapon. (Specifically; the multiplier would be 0.4*2 with level 1 left hand mastery, which is the larger-than-1 figure of 1.6). It is against level 1 elemental defence that the original multiplier is lower, so the final result would theoretically be a less-than-1 multiplier of 0.4*1.75, ie 0.7. ____ I may get off my lazy butt and make an assassin just to try this out, but I don't see that happening any time soon.
  8. But look at Ghaspar's formula, and look at how it produces the correct result as demonstrated in his screenshots. In that formula, and as explained by the goodly gentleman, it is CLEARLY applied more than once. Perhaps there is something wonky in that formula, or more likely, there is just one more thing that is, as usual, wonky in this videogame. Even if it was applied once, 0.4*1.75 is still a less than 1 modifier, so the correct element would still decrease damage, which is the main point. And if it didn't, something would still not be accounted for, which is the subsidiary point.
  9. Yes, of course! Instead of worrying about an elemental weapon at all, if we have a neutral weapon in both hands, it seems that the offhand penalty is applied only once, to the damage contributed by the off-hand weapon. Now, that makes perfect sense. When you have a main hand weapon that is elemental and an off-hand weapon that is neutral, it seems that the offhand penalty is AGAIN applied only once, to the damage contributed by the off-hand weapon. Again that makes perfect sense. But as soon as you put the elemental property weapon into the off-hand, the elemental property modifier gets applied TWICE, ie once at the stage of calculating the off-hand weapon's actual damage, which is 80% of its max, and then AGAIN at the stage of multiplying the whole damage by the elemental modifier. Now that's wacky as hell, and if it's correct, Ragnarok is just being wonky as usual. This becomes most obvious when the result of the (Hand Mastery Damage modifier*the Elemental property modifier) is a number LESS than one, as contemplated in my post above, because as icepick shows us [in case we didn't know from basic maths], multiplication by a greater than one figure is an increase, while multiplication by a LESS THAN ONE fraction IS A DECREASE. To create such a situation, we just have to switch some numbers in the very same equation you have so helpfully provided. We'll use the very numbers I had been talking about in my post. Instead of a modifier of 2 from wind offensive vs water3 defensive, we'll start with a modifier of 1.75 from wind offensive vs water1 defensive (eg jujube vs the lowly poring). Instead of a modifier of 0.8 from left hand mastery maxed, we'll use a modifier of 0.4 from left hand mastery 1. Thus instead of LHM modifier*Elemental modifier giving a greater-than-1 multiplier to increase our damage multiplicand, ie 0.8*2 =1.6, we will have the LHM modifier*elemental modifier resulting in a LESS THAN ONE fraction to DECREASE our damage multiplicand, ie 0.4*1.75 = 0.7. So if the weapon is in the main hand, INSTEAD of (171+1*39+0.80*43) = 244.4 multiplied by elemental modifier of 2 = 488.8, we will have: (171+1*39+0.4*43) = 227.2, which will be multipled by elemental modifier of 1.75 = 397.6 And if the weapon is in the off hand, instead of (171+1*43+0.80*39) = 245.2, to be multiplied by elemental modifier of 2 = 490.4, THEN to be multiplied by mastery modifier of 0.8 AGAIN, = 392, we will have (171+1*43+0.4*39) = 229.6, which will be multiplied by elemental modifier of 1.75 = 401.8, then to be multiplied by mastery modifier of 0.4 AGAIN, = 160.72. Comparing both as neutral, which apparently has an elemental modifier of 1, unaffected by the left hand mastery situation, you'd see that a 39 ATK neutral weapon in the off hand would result in higher damage, because there is no multiplication by a LESS THAN ONE FRACTION going on. Hence: (171+1*43+0.4*39) = 229.6, which has no further elemental OR MASTERY modifier to undergo, and hence ends up higher than 160.72. But OBVIOUSLY a correct elemental modifier should always INCREASE damage, because you're hitting with the CORRECT ELEMENT. So the fact that it wouldn't in this case is just wonked the fuck out. (And if the correct elemental weapon in the off-hand with LHM 1 vs defensive element 1 does still result in higher damage compared to a neutral one of the same ATK,then something may be off about the forumla, for example the bonus damage from elements may be added into the calculation rather than representing a strictly multiplicative modifier.)
  10. If having the correct elemental property to deal more damage makes you deal less damage, that is strange beyond strange. If having the correct elemental property to deal more damage does NOT make you deal less damage under the conditions I laid out above, the formula may be slightly off, and may well be so in precisely the manner I described. Considering the uniqueness of the situation if the first line is correct, it would certainly be an oddity germane to dual-weilding.
  11. ...Oh, and wait a minute... So with Left Hand mastery 1 or 2... it should end up with elemental weapons in the off hand being actually useless, even harmful on elemental def below 2. The damage of the weapon would cap at 40% or 50% of what it should be, but the multiplier for element would also cap at 40% or 50% of what it should be. So even where the multiplier should be 2, the max it could become... would be 1; ie the same damage. As to elemental defence of a level BELOW 2, it'd be actually harmful to have the correct element! EG wind vs water 1, instead of a multiplier of 1.75 you'd get a multiplier of 0.7 (40% of 1.75; Left Hand Mastery 1), or of 0.875 (50% of 1.75; LHM 2). And with Right-hand mastery ZERO, assuming it works same as left hand mastery, endows on the MAIN hand should also end up being totally useless. Because eg wind vs water1, you'd get a multiplier of half 1.75, ie 0.875, from Right Hand Mastery Zero. ...And thus in both cases the CORRECT elemental weakness on elemental def below 2 should result in damage LOWER than neutral? ????????????? What The Fuck, Videogame? Although, with that having been said, sometimes 1.5X is just shorthand for "add half of X to X". In that case there would certainly still be an increase in damage, if the elemental ADDITION is what was reduced, rather than the whole actually multiplied by a figure reduced accordingly. It'd be the (incredibly substantial) difference between "Add 30% of the damage, not 75% of the damage" and "Multiply the damage by 0.7, not 1.75".
  12. Wow. According to that formula it certainly appears as though even with Mes, the elemental weapon shoud be in the main hand. Capping the ELEMENTAL MODIFIER for all the damage at 80% of what it should be, so wind vs water3 is only 1.6 instead of 2... really has a crippling effect. Who'd have thought they would not only cap the damage of the off-hand weapon at 80%, but also cap the elemental modifier at that percentage of what it should be? And then apply that elemental modifier to all the damage done, including the damage done by the non-elemental weapon... Ragnarok Online is a very strange videogame. I wonder what the calculations are when it comes to the icepick effect; eg with Icepick and Excalibur in Geffenia.
  13. Yes, but does elemental dagger in the main hand result in higher damage than neutral prop weapon in the main hand, EVEN WHEN the neutral property weapon would far and away outclass the elemental dagger in damage, ATK-wise? Such as would be the case with the Mes? And if so, I am wondering what could possibly be the reason for that, especially considering the whole 80% ATK from the off-hand and all. Since I am assuming elemental weapon in either hand gives the elemental property to both attacks, I have no idea why it should be the case. (But maybe it is still the case even then, because Ragnarok Online is a very strange videogame. Or indeed, perhaps the elemental weapon in one hand does not give its elemental property to the other-hand weapon's attack, and the elemental weapon's damage is always calculated separately. That would mean in the off-hand the elemental weapon is subject to the 80% maximum, sure, so the only damage multiplied by elemental advantage is decreased by 20%, but theoretically some weapon combinations would still result in better damage with your higher ATK neutral prop weapon in the main hand.) _ yes _ Always worth double-checking, especially as Ragnarok Online is a very strange videogame. And I mean, the 80% damage modifier ALREADY works differently on autoattack from how it does on skills. I like both theory and practice, but sometimes a gram of practice is worth a kilogram of theory. _
  14. (#13000)Jujube dagger's ATK should be slightly less than (#1207)Main Gauche's but yet its damage is higher in the main hand? Does that apply in the same way for main-hand daggers with WAY more ATK like (#13027)Mes [3]? .... And if so, what the fuck, videogame EDIT: Also, to see if the 80% of ATK maximum applies to flat number +ATK cards on the offhand weapon, one has to test autoattack with those cards. The offhand weapon's atk doesn't apply at all in the listed skills, as well as no penalty applying to the cards' ATK in those skills. Basically, some skills clearly and wholly disregard the 100% and 80% statement, so gotta test autoattack which apparently DOES apply that statement.
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