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Just Amri

WoE Discussion 2-4-2017

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36 minutes ago, Squall Leonhart said:

Cap players at 24 and remove alliance? So if we have people that want to play together we cant? 

Apparently you didn't really read anything completely? The proposed cap is between 25 and 30. Removing alliances is a given. What is the point of having alliances when there are only 2 or 3 guilds per WoE format?

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On 6/23/2017 at 10:02 AM, /人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ said:

Guild Member Count and Alliances

The main goal of this post is to make WoE more active and enjoyable for more players. In order to do this, I believe we need to disable WoE alliances and drop max guild member (per WoE) count down to around 25 or 30.

Alliances have no place in the current WoE scene since there are generally no more than 3 competitive guilds (if that) WoE'ing in the same mode on the same day. 

 

Didnt u just expressively state that you would like guild alliances to be disabled? The point is some guilds might have more members and would like to play together instead. Why cant that be allowed?

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33 minutes ago, Squall Leonhart said:

Didnt u just expressively state that you would like guild alliances to be disabled? The point is some guilds might have more members and would like to play together instead. Why cant that be allowed?

That mentality is exactly what led to the decline in the WoE scene to begin with. The point of alliances was for guilds to ally with completely different guilds in order to overcome a much larger force. This server doesn't have enough guilds for this to be practical. I realize you are saying this since your Unres guild uses an alt guild to bypass the number cap so I'll direct this response at you and your guild.

Does your enemy outnumber you so greatly that you need to utilize the alliance system for all your excess players? No. In fact, you outnumber the enemy guild by at least twice the numbers. This is the current situation of the WoE format you are discussing yet you still think a guild of 40+ is a good idea for the server? You mention that "some guilds" might have more members as an argument for keeping the status quo but I can only think of one guild that does that.

On another note, I believe every active WoE guild leader has already agreed that alliances need to go.

If you have any better suggestions to help the WoE scene, feel free to post them. That's what this topic is for. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something about your post.

Edited by /人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\

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55 minutes ago, /人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ said:

That mentality is exactly what led to the decline in the WoE scene to begin with. The point of alliances was for guilds to ally with completely different guilds in order to overcome a much larger force. This server doesn't have enough guilds for this to be practical. I realize you are saying this since your Unres guild uses an alt guild to bypass the number cap so I'll direct this response at you and your guild.

Does your enemy outnumber you so greatly that you need to utilize the alliance system for all your excess players? No. In fact, you outnumber the enemy guild by at least twice the numbers. This is the current situation of the WoE format you are discussing yet you still want to recruit? You mention that "some guilds" might have more members as an argument for keeping the status quo but the only guild that does is your own. It sounds more like selfishness than an actual argument.

On another note, I believe every active WoE guild leader has agreed that alliances need to go.

Theres no need to direct this personally to anyone. We have people that enjoy being in certain guilds and that happens to exceed to guild cap. Therefore the need for another guild. Isnt the forum recruitment thread open for anybody to recruit? Are you having difficulties getting new members? That takes time btw. So i suggest you have patience.

And didnt you came back to the woe scene joining another guild? You then left the guild and created your own. Right?

Now you have your own guild with decent numbers,  why don't you ally the other guild to "overcome a much larger force"? What is stopping you from doing that? And btw, from what i heard, you REFUSED to take in new members in the first place.

So for whatever reason, you did not ally the other unres guild, and at this point of time you don't have enough members so you figured it'll be easier to suggest disabling the alliance instead? So selfless of you.
 

I'll just leave this here. Ciao~

 

Edited by Squall Leonhart

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7 minutes ago, Squall Leonhart said:

Theres no need to direct this personally to anyone. We have people that enjoy being in certain guilds and that happens to exceed to guild cap. Therefore the need for another guild. Isnt the forum recruitment thread open for anybody to recruit? Are you having difficulties getting new members? That takes time btw. So i suggest you have patience.

And didnt you came back to the woe scene joining another guild? You then left the guild and created your own. Right?

Now you have your own guild with decent numbers,  why don't you ally the other guild to "overcome a much larger force"? What is stopping you from doing that?

So for whatever reason, you did not ally the other unres guild, and at this point of time you don't have enough members so you figured it'll be easier to suggest disabling the alliance instead? So selfless of you.
 

I'll just leave this here. Ciao~

 

There's nothing personal about it o.o I felt the need to address it towards your guild in general because it is the only guild that fits the criteria you keep mentioning (of guilds that exceed the guildcap). No other existing guild fits that criteria.  Are we (unres) having difficulties getting new members? Yeah. That's one of the issues with having 2/3rds of the active WoE population in one guild that exceeds the guild cap.

The "other guild" you mention no longer exists. One would think that the fact that they haven't appeared for over a month and a half would be evidence of that.

I'm not suggesting disabling alliances to make it easier for us. I'm suggesting it since it would benefit the server as a whole and most people agree. You seem to be working under the assumption that these suggestions started with me in the first place so allow me to correct that. The suggestion to reduce the guild cap initially came from your own guild leader. The removal of alliances in WoE was agreed upon by every leader of every active WoE guild on the server. Nothing selfish about me mirroring their beliefs.

Like I mentioned before, feel free to post any ideas you have for improving WoE. Attempting to attack me in posts will get you nowhere. As it stands you aren't adding anything to the discussion beside "I don't want to reduce the player cap and disable alliances". I understand your desire but it honestly isn't helping to improve WoE. That's the objective of this discussion.

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8 hours ago, Squall Leonhart said:

And btw, from what i heard, you REFUSED to take in new members in the first place.

Funny, the only person we rejected was someone who didn't fill out their application fully and didn't respond when asked to redo it. /shy 

Anyway, +1 for alliance removal. Let's not pretend this is a new issue - it's happened multiple times in the last 4 years in Vanilla and Unres and probably way before I started WoEing here too. Guilds just allying themselves to have 45+ members, I mean.

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19 hours ago, Squall Leonhart said:

Theres no need to direct this personally to anyone. We have people that enjoy being in certain guilds and that happens to exceed to guild cap. Therefore the need for another guild. Isnt the forum recruitment thread open for anybody to recruit? Are you having difficulties getting new members? That takes time btw. So i suggest you have patience.

And didnt you came back to the woe scene joining another guild? You then left the guild and created your own. Right?

Now you have your own guild with decent numbers,  why don't you ally the other guild to "overcome a much larger force"? What is stopping you from doing that? And btw, from what i heard, you REFUSED to take in new members in the first place.

So for whatever reason, you did not ally the other unres guild, and at this point of time you don't have enough members so you figured it'll be easier to suggest disabling the alliance instead? So selfless of you.
 

I'll just leave this here. Ciao~

 

 

Honestly it feels like you're trying to throw rocks in a WoE Discussion Thread. If it helps to continue this discussion along further I'd be glad to clear up some facts for you very quickly. Mark of the Elite again started WoEing on June 3rd/4th (depending on timezone) as clearly seen here:

 

This topic was created by GM Amri, 2 Month's Prior with the interest of, and I quote:

 

On 4/2/2017 at 11:50 AM, GM Amri said:

Now that that has all been said I feel like we can finally zoom in on TalonRO. TalonRO is of course one of the most unique servers you will find out there. The highrate-in-lowrate format clearly appeals to many people and is mainly what sets this server apart from the considerable number of servers out there. While TalonRO has been extremely progressive in terms of PvE with the many customizations as well as readily accessible MVP cards, it has remained remarkably traditional when it comes to WoE. The server has certainly known good times when it comes to WoE, but now that it has been stagnant for a period of time it may be wise to look at what we can change to revitalise the game mode. You will find the major suggestions outlined below, accompanied with notes of my own.

 

Revitalizing the game mode because it's become stagnant for a period of time... Hmm. So it would appear that the past YEARS of the WoE scene being stagnant compared to the MONTHS that Poseidon has been WoEing has literally 0 Zip Zilch correlation to these suggestions being made. If you think your guild format of loading everyone into two separate guilds on the server and only winning based on numbers is new and exciting, then why was this discussion created? Was the purpose not to get more leaders and guilds created, and more people as a whole interested in WoE? Do you think you've been helping or hindering the situation? WoE as a whole in RO is a very fun game mode as it incorporates personal skill as well as gear and teamwork all together in an anything goes environment with set objectives for each side. Most of the 'set' variables of WoE were created with a much larger scale in mind. Our current WoEing population clearly doesn't reflect the current variables, or how is it that most of the WoE population fits into a single guild/same guild alliance? With whom do you hope to fight against at that rate? I don't deny obtaining numbers is also a guild skill, but within reason. Reason dictates that clearly 38 and alliances is absolutely ridiculous when there's only max 80 people WoEing at a time. So at this point the only skill needed is to pay off or convince or befriend more people that WoE than the other guild? How does that benefit the WoE scene and generate more guilds? (Remember that's the point of this whole topic)

- To play devils advocate to my self, if the general honest opinion of most of the population PREFERS ONLY a 1v1 style WoE, then perhaps ideas can be formulated to created specific Server Guild Alliances. In which guilds could join a Red Team Alliance or Blue Team Alliance and work towards points for your team color, with the teams spanning across every format and anyone could join, but WoE dedicated people would still have the most impact. I believe someone had mentioned WoE 'Seasons'. Guilds could be locked in to their team color and switchable every 6 months or new 'Season'. Hence server wide involvement, and something unique to TalonRO. It's not that our ideas are directed at any guilds in particular, but they coincide with popular opinion, which is why they were suggested.

 

*Fun Fact: Here at MotE, we originally wanted to only be 10-20 members as a 3rd guild in the Unres SE scene, but two guilds personal grudges sent one guild away, so only MotE was left against the angry large guild with a grudge still, but no one to aim it towards..

 

Again, I just want us all to be completely transparent here Squall, if you feel that these suggestions are being made directly at you and your guild then you are incorrect. 90% of the suggestions just presented were about a new point system to help new and current guilds afford WoE easier and create new incentives and ways to gauge WoE via a point system. You chose to pick the one topic out of there that has already been discussed and agreed upon by more people than you know. I respect all these people enough not to call them out, but this is a public forum for the purpose of discussing these things and everyone that cares enough about WoE should put forth their own honest opinions. I feel that a lot of WoE's stagnation is definitely the players fault too, and that given the opportunity of everyone working towards something new and fun, we can all come up with ideas that could be acceptable by the GM's and possible to implement.

 

 

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20 hours ago, Squall Leonhart said:

So for whatever reason, you did not ally the other unres guild, and at this point of time you don't have enough members so you figured it'll be easier to suggest disabling the alliance instead? So selfless of you.

Your guild leaders haven't been informing you guys of what is happening in the council? 

tenor.gif

Back to @/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ original post. 

I personally am not too keen in reducing the number of people per guild. Like I said in the council, a 24 cap will just further fragment the current player base, with a huge possibility of some players simply stopping. Why? Even with a bunch of prospective WoE players, they won't do nothing without a guild leader. However, combined with the other suggestions, this might just work. 

 

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2 hours ago, Arya said:

Your guild leaders haven't been informing you guys of what is happening in the council? 

tenor.gif

Yeah this is my favorite part of the discussion tbh.
 

2 hours ago, Arya said:

However, combined with the other suggestions, this might just work. 

Agreed. I wouldn't be in favor of lowering the guild cap without implementing some of the other suggestions made (i.e point system).

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18 hours ago, Oh Shi- said:

*Fun Fact: [...] but two guilds personal grudges sent one guild away, so only MotE was left against the angry large guild with a grudge still, but no one to aim it towards..

Please don't speak for my guild as one that holds grudges. /sigh

Plenty of us don't have any personal grudges against MotE or Summer as a whole. To be honest, there are Poseidon members who really wanted Summer to actively continue to WoE are now inactive due to "lack of activity in the current situation of tRO's WoE scene".

Our guild tries to make do with what we have on the scene. Simply put, with everyone spending effort and time out of their day to come to WoE. We try to make that 1 hour as entertaining for everyone as possible.

With that said, a good number of Poseidon members who are currently inactive  were there for the scene and never actually interested in throwing offensive remarks at another guild. Especially our newer members who haven't the slightest clue.

 

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Yes sir. Keidan, I'll PM you man /ok

 

Everyone, this is the part of the discussion where we all skewer the ideas and replace the holes with new ones till we mesh out something that coincides with everyone's values and desires for War of Emperium. For as many people that I know find WoE stagnant at the moment, this sure is a quiet thread... Why should the GM's put forth effort to improve the WoE scene if the people who are supposed to enjoy the fruit of that labor aren't bothering/willing to discuss changes?

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Just wanna share, if makes no sense please ignore

1. Open up more castle and reduce castle treasure value back

  • To promote WoE, TRO very long ago boosted castle treasure (I can be wrong).  GM worry good loots flood everywhere. Castle reduced to 1 castle per WoE. New player would not make guild cos they simply don't stand a chance. They join other guild, most the time winning guild. Guild expand too big. Out number everybody. Losing side quit/emo/complains but stuck due to point number #2.
  • Reduce castle treasure. More than 90% of WoE community doesn't care about treasure cos only guild leader access to them. The last time I joined a guild that list down all castle loot and auction to guild member long dead (I can be wrong).
  • Solo Sinx may get castle end of WoE. But if loot is bad it is actually ok cos the next WoE newbie guild will attack and break the econ.

2. TRO friendly community

  • We are not allow to trash talk/brag anymore. Will get punished. TRO building too friendly community. The long lost fun

3. Lesser WoE type/split WoE to different days and make WoE back to 2 hours again

  • 2 hour WoE is boring because TRO WoE is dead.

4. TRO have too many fancy custom

  • WoE is not special anymore. Nobody's fault cos if there is no update and new stuff old players complains.

5. WoE cost (somewhat)

  • I am bias on this. AD need to be farmed now. But on the old days, there is people that farm cakes to spam for WoE cos WoE was used to be fun.
Edited by Arch

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On 6/22/2017 at 10:02 PM, /人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ said:

Point System

 

The entire post generally revolves around the idea of a point system for WoE so I will start by discussing that. I think that WoE should be on a point system that is basically the same as the Wave Challenge system. Since that system is already out (and works well!) we might as well make more use of it. I do propose changes to the system based on the situation each guild is in so I'll post them below.

Attackers- The guilds attacking the castle should get a specific amount of points per kill. The exact amount of points can be discussed if this idea appears desirable to more people but for now I'll use random numbers so people can better visualize the system. If a player from guild A (GA for short) kills a player from the guild defending the castle (guild B or GB), the player gains 3 points for his entire guild. The points can either go to everybody in GA that is active on that day (if possible) or everybody (in GA) that is on the WoE map at the time of the kill. If a player from guild A kills a player from guild C (GC) then all of GA (on the map) gains 2 points.

Defenders- If the guild defending the castle gets a kill they should also get a specific amount of points per kill. If GB is defending and kills a player from any attacking guild, GB should get 2 points per kill.

Simply put-

Defender kills any attacker = 2 points/ Attacker kills another attacker = 2 points/ Attacker kills a defender = 3 points

Some of you might ask why attacking guilds get more points for killing the defending guild than they get for killing another attacking guild. The reason for that is because the push to take the castle should be competitive. Ultimately, war of emperium is a war to take the emperium. The reason why we have the defending guild gain less points than attacking guilds is because of multiple reasons. The first reason is that defending is easier than attacking (given the defenders have the same amount of players as the attacking guild). Flag-ins make getting back to the fight much quicker for the defending guild which is a significant advantage. The second reason is that ending with the castle grants its own rewards. Castle loot and dungeon access are already benefits of owning the castle. The third (and final) reason is that the guild defending the castle is usually the largest (or strongest) guild. It would be much easier for a guild of 30+ to kill members of a guild of 20.

Point System Uses

The point system could be split into 2 parts (guild and individual)

Individual

There are two ways that points can be tallied. The first way would be that all players in guilds gain points individually based on whether they were in the castle at the time of a kill or not. For example- a player (named Bob) in guild A is alive (and in the castle) for an amount of kills equaling 100 points (over the entire duration of WoE). That is the exact number of points that Bob will receive for that particular WoE. This way is less "forgiving" but more reliable in terms of WoE activity. It's also likely easier to code. *I'm in favor of this*

The option is for a system that totals up a guild's points and divides it by the number of active players in the guild. For example- If guild A manages to accumulate 3,000 total points during the duration of WoE and there are 30 active players in the guild, the 3,000 points are divided up among the 30 members for a total of 100 points per player. This option is more "forgiving" to players that die often but it seems less reliable in terms of guild activity (what if somebody shows up the last 5 minutes of WoE and still gets the same amount of points as somebody who was active all WoE). I'm not a fan of this option but figured I would post it anyway as an alternative.

Uses

The individual points gained during WoE would be account bound and have multiple uses. The feature could be built on (in the future) as people get better ideas for what these points should reward. The points and the rewards will have to remain account bound to prevent people from attempting to abuse dual clients for points.

Individual player points could be spent one of three ways. You could exchange the points for BG coins (exchange rate would have to be determined), exchange them for new account bound supplies, or save up a large number of points to get a great costume (think 2-3 months of WoEs worth of points).

These three options allow for players (at different stages of the game) to have a goal to work towards.

If a player isn't satisfied with their current gear, they can work towards gaining some BG gear (in combination with actual BG, of course). The exchange rate should be low (so that people still have to BG to get the items in a decent amount of time) but still help out with achieving that goal. I think an average of 1/3rd of the coins within the same time frame would be good (for example, WoE'ing for an hour will only net you the same amount of coins as BG'ing for 20 minutes).

If a player is newer and/or doesn't want to use (or have) zeny to spend on WoE supplies, they can buy individual supplies from a shop. These supplies would be account bound, WoE use only, and worse than the supplies currently available (yet still pretty decent in terms of use). The supplies would also only work inside WoE castles. This will allow for players to have access to supplies simply by WoE'ing without affecting the economy too much. It also means that players that are willing to spend money for WoE will have a slight advantage (so there is still the option for a "hardcore" WoE guild to purchase supplies for all of their members from individual sellers in game like normal). I'll post the recovery item ideas below so people can comment.

The account bound HP item will recover 250 - 350 HP per use and weigh 2. The account bound SP item will recover 16-28 SP per use and weigh 3.5. The HP item was created with BOTH Vanilla and Unres WoE modes in mind. Cake (350-450 HP, weigh 1) and Slims (325-405 HP unranked, weigh 1) both heal more and weigh less so they are still more desirable but this item is still good. The SP item was created with only Vanilla in mind since GJ is cheap and abundant for Unres. Strawberries (16-28 SP w/ no strawberry in mouth, weigh 2) and blue potions (40-60 SP unranked, weigh 15) both recover more SP so they will still be better than the bound SP potions. A random sprite should be used (not a current used sprite) to represent the items but the healing animation should mirror cakes/strawberry so people aren't aware of who is using what supplies.

The point based costume idea is there to give veterans a nice reward for continuous WoEing. I'd recommend finding three good sprites (so it's worth the effort to obtain yet you still get a choice) and make them available as a reward for every form of WoE. Keeping them account bound (yet exclusive to WoE) prevents a "the rich get richer while the poor get poorer" situation and makes it more rewarding once you finally get the costume you are aiming for. Since everybody has the option to save up for these rewards, the costumes aren't limited to veterans and are obtainable even if you aren't very knowledgeable about WoE.

Guild

Another system that could be used (in addition to the individual point system) is a total guild point system. While the players gain points for kills, I feel like guilds could gain points in the same manner. These points could be used in the future if the point-based system is ever discussed. We can delve more into this later (if desired).

This topic hasn't seen much discussion lately so I just wanted to bump this again. It would be nice if we could get some more @GM Amri@GM Havoc@GM Boreas@GM Howl feedback on what has been discussed :)

Dunno if this was suggested. WoE NPC that gives rental items. Unres specifically. x2 Celebs, SQI weapon, Kaho, Toad Valk Shield, GTB, etc. Also NPC that gives WoE exclusive items like BG does. AD's, Slims, etc. Even if it's just temporary enough to spark an interest with newer people. Also, making it generally easier for people to get mid-tier gear. Buff farming sites. The main reason people don't WoE or PVP is because they don't have good enough gear to do so(Pretty sure anyway).

Giving out rental gear that good makes the gear itself pointless. Most people are mistaken when they think they don't have enough gear for WoE. They simply don't know what gear they need.

Edited by /人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\

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1 Month and 23 days after the last post.

Is this thread dead? We dont see any updates here and we dont know what is happening in yer WoE Round Table Discord which is supposed to be transparent to all.

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8 hours ago, Nonoko-chan said:

1 Month and 23 days after the last post.

Is this thread dead? We dont see any updates here and we dont know what is happening in yer WoE Round Table Discord which is supposed to be transparent to all.

There is definitely a lack of updates but work goes on behind the scenes. As for discord, it is not supposed to be transparent to all or else everybody would be invited to it. We have to evaluate many ideas and preparing a proposal simply takes time. I rather do things right instead of messing it up even more. That being said, the GMs who are responsible for it will post an update once they have something solid to present, that's what I can assure you.

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On 10/25/2017 at 10:56 AM, GM Boreas said:

We have to evaluate many ideas and preparing a proposal simply takes time. I rather do things right instead of messing it up even more. That being said, the GMs who are responsible for it will post an update once they have something solid to present, that's what I can assure you.

I'm glad to see the Pvp/BG/WoE update announcement! Would it be possible for the PvP/WoE GMs to post a preview of the changes to the WoE framework before it is finalized so the community can help suggest things and comment on it?

Another suggestion I thought of (that might've already been mentioned) is possibly reverting the Castle Treasure back to the original amount (assuming that entire system isn't reworked). I believe the number of treasure chests that spawn was cut in half.

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*Blows off dust*

Hello everybody this is GM Blackstar, your new PvP/WoE GM. As of the last couple days I've been looking at many of these old posts and Wondering if these problems are still having an influence in WoE or has things have changed lately with the community?

Do people still think some of these Idea's are needed or just become obsolete due to better understanding the situation?

I've mainly started a discussion in TalonRO's Discord server under the WoE discussion channel if anyone wants to read and talk more there. I will be taking further notes and complying idea's after I read over the next couple days. in the upcoming week or so (depending on irl situations) I will making a small questionnaire for Current and past guild leaders to look at and foward to me. 

 

As of right now from my notes, the main issue is lack of supplies from all forms of WoE from what I have gathered.

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