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i guess the past still lurks here,even if the new bloods did different,

in my opinion,if u really like to make the pvp worth it?

fixing some bugs would be great already,

also as for the holloween pvp event?

just my opinion too,

one should never combine pvp to pvm,,

instead of gaining a costume via pvp? since seriously they would just do that,the alternate win,

make something like a title that only a winner can have,"a statue or something on pront"

or a glorious weapon or something that is actually usefull on pvp,

think about the strawberries and cakes?

i dont really like hearing that from a rish person,u can just do it via pvm. also this just proves that ur combining PVP to PVM.

so just do the stuff u can do for now,

and right now is just fixing some bugs would be really nice already,,

i dont mind if some wont agree but thats the best route,no need for shenanigans like costumes really,fixing the bug and that afk dudes that kills bg would be great already.a command that will put the afk dude in one minute to be kicked 2nd offence is mute 10 minutes 3rd offence talk to gms before getting unbanned,to make it more interesting is that all team is randomized,just need 10 - 16 players and u can start already.lobby room should do that

to avoid the alternate win,,if u can spot a bot,i guess u can spot a chat too or a whisper

so yeah thats all my opinion through it.

truly yours,

Kono of the crimsons

Edited by Kono Yakusaku
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4 hours ago, Kono Yakusaku said:

Stuff

It seems a bit off topic. You could make another post in this section or post your ideas in suggestions.

As far as the topic title goes, it was already mentioned in the pvp update announcement that the BG beta will be starting soon so I think that is answered.

Nothing in BG should give auto-links. If you have an actual linker on your team, more power to you...

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22 hours ago, /人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ said:

Nothing in BG should give auto-links. If you have an actual linker on your team, more power to you...

i agree with this, the pre-link is actually one of the few things that ruined BG in the 1st place xD

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4 hours ago, M a r x said:

i agree with this, the pre-link is actually one of the few things that ruined BG in the 1st place xD

I would even go as far and level the playing field by preventing all pre-buffs if at all possible. But then if Flavius came back pre-buff wouldn't matter much anyway because it needs way longer than Tierra Gorge.

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Should BGs ever get implemented i really hope they aren't going to follow WoE rules but PvP rules instead. BGs aren't WoE and most of the WoE restricitions are pretty stupid anyway (except Ice Wall). Just because they do it on the official korean server doesn't mean its good.

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I just hope BG turns into a casual-fast paced WoE, so people get hyped for the real thing

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3 hours ago, I am Ark said:

Should BGs ever get implemented i really hope they aren't going to follow WoE rules but PvP rules instead. BGs aren't WoE and most of the WoE restricitions are pretty stupid anyway (except Ice Wall). Just because they do it on the official korean server doesn't mean its good.

Out of curiosity, which WoE restrictions do you find stupid? I think they're all fairly well thought. The WoE restrictions were put in place to make group vs group fighting more enjoyable for all. I don't think I'd mind the restrictions at all. Pvp is pvp, WoE is WoE, and BG is bg, regardless of the restrictions.

Edited by /人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\

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6 minutes ago, /人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ said:

Out of curiosity, which WoE restrictions do you find stupid? I think they're all fairly well thought. The WoE restrictions were put in place to make group vs group fighting more enjoyable for all. I don't think I'd mind the restrictions at all. Pvp is pvp, WoE is WoE, and BG is bg, regardless of the restrictions.

I am NOT Ark, but to me the restriction that causes the biggest change is the lack of knockback and some movement skills in WoE.  Though placement bugs/lag would be a bit annoying in a really large fight with everyone spamming knockbacks, some classes are pretty reliant on them and their movement to really shine when fighting other players.

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25 minutes ago, Bandiger said:

I am NOT Ark, but to me the restriction that causes the biggest change is the lack of knockback and some movement skills in WoE.  Though placement bugs/lag would be a bit annoying in a really large fight with everyone spamming knockbacks, some classes are pretty reliant on them and their movement to really shine when fighting other players.

Allowing knockback is a large change but it is 100% necessary. If you could knockback in WoE, Stormgust would be too destructive. You could also charge arrow/jupitel people out of the portal and prevent them from even WoE'ing... if you factor in things like position lag, it would just be miserable.

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1 hour ago, /人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ said:

...

The WoE restrictions were put in place to make group vs group fighting more enjoyable for all.

...

This! BG without WOE ruleset would be a mess >.>

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1 hour ago, /人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ said:

Allowing knockback is a large change but it is 100% necessary. If you could knockback in WoE, Stormgust would be too destructive. You could also charge arrow/jupitel people out of the portal and prevent them from even WoE'ing... if you factor in things like position lag, it would just be miserable.

I agree completely.  BGs are not that much different than WoE imo, so the restrictions should be the same.

Edited by Bandiger

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On ‎12‎.‎01‎.‎2018 at 9:06 PM, /人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ said:

Allowing knockback is a large change but it is 100% necessary. If you could knockback in WoE, Stormgust would be too destructive. You could also charge arrow/jupitel people out of the portal and prevent them from even WoE'ing... if you factor in things like position lag, it would just be miserable.

add a skid traps and attackers will never get anywhere near emp..

I also wonder what other "stupid rules" are we talking about.. I double checked and I cant find any, that I would call "stupid".. maybe EC, but tahts not "stupid", thats just "different"

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I am not talking about WoE. I know most of the rules do make sense in WoE but BG is not WoE. There is no Emp room in BGs.

These in particular:

  • Assumptio
  • Back Slide
  • Endure effect (still gives to you MDEF bonus) <- Only the endure effect is disabled
  • Flee is reduced by 20%.
  • Long range normal attacks are reduced by 25%.
  • All skill-based damage except Pressure and Gravitational Field is reduced by 50%.
  • All knock back effects are disabled. Some skills like Cicada Skin Shed may lose some functionality due to this
  • Damage numbers do not appear
  • Use of Elemental Scrolls, Cursed Water and other Weapon-Element changing usables are disabled. They can however, be used outside the castle, before entering and will last a whole of Three minutes, before exhausting itself
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6 hours ago, I am Ark said:

I am not talking about WoE. I know most of the rules do make sense in WoE but BG is not WoE. There is no Emp room in BGs.

These in particular:

  • Assumptio
  • Back Slide
  • Endure effect (still gives to you MDEF bonus) <- Only the endure effect is disabled
  • Flee is reduced by 20%.
  • Long range normal attacks are reduced by 25%.
  • All skill-based damage except Pressure and Gravitational Field is reduced by 50%.
  • All knock back effects are disabled. Some skills like Cicada Skin Shed may lose some functionality due to this
  • Damage numbers do not appear
  • Use of Elemental Scrolls, Cursed Water and other Weapon-Element changing usables are disabled. They can however, be used outside the castle, before entering and will last a whole of Three minutes, before exhausting itself

I feel like of those changes have a purpose that suits BG too. I'll go ahead and respond to each skill individually to make it easier to read

Assumptio - isn't needed when all the other damage reduction changes are in place. Would be fairly rough if one side had assumptio while the other didn't (if the damage nerfs weren't in place).

Backslide - The one isn't that necessary for BG. I can't really think of a solid argument against it so I'll concede this point?

Endure effect- If an LK/Paladin could rush through enemies without even flinching at the skills thrown there way, that would be the scariest class around.

Flee reduction- Pretty fair, average geared melee players would almost always miss flee geared players otherwise.

Long ranged + skill based damage reduction - 100% necessary. If this wasn't the case, all it would take is one small mistake for an entire group to die off instantly. The higher the number of players involved, the more necessary this becomes.

Knockback - already addressed this in a previous post. BG would be a game of "keepaway" with everybody spamming skills to push people back from the objective.

Damage #'s dont appear- Turning this off would flood the screen with numbers and make it a lot messier for people. Newer games have the ability to turn this off in player settings for the very same reason. This is another example of a change where the change becomes more necessary as the player count grows.

Elemental scrolls - if this rule was changed, physical (melee) classes would rule supreme. Classes like LK, WS, and SinX would easily mow through the enemy since their element couldn't be guessed to be reduced. A sinx with EDP active would be even deadlier and other classes would be required to carry at least 4 armors and play "guess the element or die (assuming you don't die anyway)".

 

Instead of just saying "ALL OF THESE don't make sense in BG", it might be better to explain which changes (in particular) and the reason why you're against them.

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Addressing these with UNRES in mind. Vanilla is an entirely different beast.

Assumptio:

Sure this would make HPs a lot more useful although i don't see how this is an issue? I mean HP isn't all that great anyway. If it really comes down to it does the class provide that you cannot get elsewhere, aside Assumptio? Lex perhaps but thats pretty much it. I could also say that AD, Meltdown or any other gear breaking stuff should be disabled because it makes FCP a neccessity. I mean sure Assumptio is really strong and definetly a deciding factor in a fight but that skill is pretty much the only thing a HP has going for himself.

Long ranged + skill based damage reduction:

Could you eloberate the scenario in which a group would instantly die off by a single mistake? I would very much like to discuss this although a little bit more context would be appreciated. These reductions are not present in the PvP rooms and damage is fine there (even without having assumptio on) for the most part. I would argue that some builds actually should do more damage. With the right gear setup and pots you can tank several players all by yourself, now add -50% damage on top and it just gets insane. I feel like the only reason the Assumptio and damage reductions are in place for WoE is because the number of players HPs would have to take care of is so big so they just pretty much give everyone perma assumptio anyway (although Assu is 30% and not 50% in PvP).

Endure:

There are plenty ways to lock down swordsman classes even if they have endure on. Stone curse, Freeze, Sleep, Quag, Decrease Agi, Ankle to name some of them. I do understand what you mean though and perhaps this is really needed as LKs already are the strongest class by far in terms of small scale PvP. Although Endure is not exclusive to swordsman classes as there is Eddga card so all classes would benefit from this to a certain extent.

Flee Reduction:

-20% flee kills flee builds entirely. Why do we have to kill them off when there is plenty counterplay to flee such as phreeoni which does not even cost 20m? TBH i dont even know why this is in WoE yet alone BGs. Dahell is the reasoning behind this restriction i really would like to know because it makes zero sense. Perhaps this is a vanilla driven change where you do not have access to phreeoni or scaraba although you don't have valk/SK there either which really make flee builds work in the first place. Not to mention skills such as asura or AD that downright ignore flee.

Knockback:

The only reason this is implemented in WoE is because it would be very easy for a defending party to hinder people advancing into the emp room and should they manage to get into the emp room to keep them off the emperium. Again there is no emp room in BGs. Also there are items that grant knockback immunity such as RSX or strong shield. Honestly i think whether or not this is in place wouldn't make much of a difference so might aswell leave it as is. I mean buffs to BB are always welcome (sarcasm yes no?).

Damage numbers not appearing:

This takes so much skill out of the game i should have put this into my list several times. Adapting to your enemy and the gear he is using is such a major part of ROs skill ceiling and not getting any feedback kills this on so many levels. There is so much information one can get out of the damage he is dealing to a particular enemy and how much damage he is recieving from said enemy which you simply don't get if there are no damage numbers shown. While this does indeed flood the screen in a 30vs30 zerg fight BG is 10vs10 where i don't think this would be an issue. It could be but i do believe the positives far outweigh the negatives.

Elemental Scrolls:

I really dont understand the element hate that is present on tRO. Restricting element switches takes so much skill out of the game and kills build diversity at the same time. Not to mention that it makes a lot of good weapons downright useless. For example spiral LK has to have a Nibelungen otherwise the build simply doesn't work because cheaper alternatives such as pole axe or hunting spear serve no point. Backstab stalker would be another example that simply doesn't work because lack of elements. I feel this point is worth a topic on its own so im not gonna get into detail as much although i would like to address the examples you've given. LK has Nibel, SinX has plenty elemental options so both of these classes can already play the element game rather well. WS you do have a point although they aren't neccessarily top of the food chain. While some classes would get a buff from this (WS, champions) i think that again, the positives far outweigh the negatives. It is also not neccessary to reduce damage via elements as there are plenty damage reducing items that work just fine. Toad, Valk Helm, CK to name a few.

 

 

I mean we can discuss for hours on end and i am in no way saying that my opinion is fact and should be taken as that. I do understand that a lot of these points can be argued against. What it basically comes down to is that i personally would be very very dissappointed if Staff just slaps WoE ruleset onto BG and calls it a day when it should be treated entirely different because again, BG is not WoE.

 

Edited by I am Ark

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@I am Ark I'll respond to each thing individually so it looks better to read

Assumptio - High priest are already EXTREMELY useful in BG due to the limited amount of supplies you get. I'd be willing to go as far as to say that HP are probably one of THE most useful classes in BG (even without assumptio).

Damage Reduction - 2 snipers and a bragi would have a field day in BG if the damage restrictions were lifted. That's about 30k damage per second (even if they aren't using an element that counters your armor. Asura becomes instant kill against most classes unless you have deviling, toad, GR on (and they could still kill classes with less than 15k HP. There are plenty of scenarios where BG will just become completely one-sided as soon as a single mistake is made.

Endure - A player can gear an LK that's freeze/sleep/stone curse immune, quag is a small surface, and decrease agi can be countered with Guarana candy. Flinch is a necessary feature in group fights.

Flee - not too sure about this restriction. It was created with "vanilla" in mind and just kept in place as the game progressed. Flee build has never been a wise thing to run in unres group-pvp so I'm not sure if this matters much.

Knockback - You're only partially correct about the reason this was implemented in WoE. It was implemented for multiple reasons but the main reason is this simply benefits the defenders too much. In WoE, you could use this to push people back out the portal (of a 1.0 castle) or just keep pushing them away from the Emperium. You mention that there's no Emp in BG but you seem to forget that there are similar objectives. Knockback also causes mass position lag and would just make a terrible mess of things in general. This isn't something that can even be considered to remove.

Damage Indication - The primary issue is flooding. Many players with older pcs will have issues with this even with 10 people vs 10 people. Of course, pvp players can tell what gear/elements other players are using by the numbers that appear but that doesn't mean it takes more "skill" than trying to analyze what an enemy is using without the numbers. It's actually the reverse. It takes more "skill" to do this when the damage isn't displayed. What you're saying is akin to believing that a blind person needs less "skill" to play golf effectively compared to a player that can see.

Elemental Scrolls - Since you addressed the examples I used, I'll just refer to those for now. LK does have Nibel but that's valuable time spent casting a skill and declaring what element you are using. That is completely different than an LK simply spamming elemental scrolls so you can't even react in time to armor swap properly (or even see which element they are using in the first place). SinX does have many elemental weapons (if they go dagger build) but it is FAR more destructive to just wear a Twinfang, EDP, and pop an elemental scroll. Your enemy can use a whatever reductions they like (and run 40k HP) but they're still gonna die in 4-5 seconds without pots (2-3 for normal players). I feel like this is actually a discussion for another topic. Most players on this server are pretty well adapted to this customization so I'm not sure many pvp/woe/bg players will support elemental scrolls.

 

 

You keep saying "Bg is not WoE" (which is correct) but the creators of BG used the WoE mechanics upon releasing BG. You say the rules should be different but I feel as though you're one of the only people who feels that way. BG was created with WoE mechanics in mind so even the initial creators disagree with you. It's okay to be against certain restrictions but you can't simply write it off as "BG is not WoE". Most of these are things the original creators must've discussed over and decided upon specifically FOR bg. You make it seem like these were all just randomly thrown into the BG mode for no reason.  The objectives, game size, and gameplay styles are what make it BG, not the restrictions.

Not trying to be rude but, based on some of your responses, you sound rather unfamiliar with Unrestricted PvP and WoE on this server (despite mentioning it exactly).

Edited by /人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\
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Ah dont worry abt it no hard feelings. In the end it just depends what kind of metagame you want to promote and if BG is supposed to be WoEs lil brother then more power to them. I personally would like to see it go into a different direction though.

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the scrolls - I agree with Ark on the scrolls... not the rest (...even though assu....) :D 

but the scrolls: as the defender cant guess, the attacker also cant guess what I wear - and we dont have the visible numbers, so you can guess only based on poting/healing of the target..

TBH - this is the only server I have been to, where scrolls are issue.. on other servers, it has been considered part of the game - most people expected, that enemy will wear evil druid.. HWs run crazy int to make people wear dokebi... snipers were switching arrows like crazy (yeah, how come that snipers has elemental advantage?? and much more than scrolls offer..)

btw I do see BG as "WoE little Brother" - after all, it also has barriers, empos and such.. besides it is just like gvg - only it is not guild, it is group..

 

Edited by howrah

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