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GM Howl

Battlegrounds | Beta Feedback

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Posted (edited)

A brief summary of the modes for people to use:

A. triple inferno
-3 teams fight it out to get the most skulls from killing enemy members and returning it back to base totem. Pvp Map

B. team deathmatch
-2 teams fight it out to get the most number of kills. Bg map 1

C. bossnia
-2 teams try to kill 2 mvps in the map, each team have their own. the first to kill both first wins. You have to break middle flag first to damage mvp. Bg map 2

D. conquest
-SE woe, one defending, one attacking.

E. stone control
-2 teams try to get the most points from getting the stones in the middle part of the map back to their base. Each can be stolen from which ever side. Bg map 1

F. domination
-2 teams try to get the most points by capturing flags, north base, south base, middle camp. Standing on the area for a good amount of time renounces your aquisition of the flag. Bg map 2

G. rush
-woe fe, starts with nobody earning the castle. 

H. capture the flag
-2 teams try to get the most points by capturing the flag of the enemy and returning to base. Bg map 1

I. eye of the storm
-2 teams try to get the most points by taking the flag in the middle camp back to the base to add more points. Bg map 2

J. free for all
-free for all pvp, random spawn on map. Bg map 3

Feel free to correct me if i got some of these incorrect. 
 

9 hours ago, /人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ said:

Storage removal in return room- I think this should be changed back. Some of the modes last a long time and players may realize they forgot an important piece of gear but will have to play through a 10+ minute BG match without the item. I'd recommend re-adding that but place the storage selection option below the repair option (that way people can still spam enter for easy repairs). This way people have a chance to correct gear mistakes if they are quick enough in storage.

Or a separate npc for it for easy clicking.

9 hours ago, /人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ said:

Free for all- Very fun mode. My only real issue with the mode is the fact that players are able to attack other players while in the return room. Would it be possible to change that or, at least, make it so coins aren't gained for kills in that location.

I dont think that was intended lol, Also I got a bug when I was randomly spawned in the fountain area and got stuck.

As for my comments on the content itself:

B. Team deathmatch
-the only problem i had with this is people camping the other spawn area of the enemy location, making it really hard to do a comeback. 1 vs 5 or more is rough. I guess you could say the same to triple inferno, but triple inferno has a lot more dynamic such as having 3 teams. Camping a side will make you vulnerable to the other.

C. Bossnia
-I really like this mode, could be more fun if the mvp was a bit more challenging.

F. Domination
-I think the mechanics here was a little confusing at the start. People didn't know how to get the flags. So just a little more explanation on that at the start would have been good.

G. Rush
-a bit chaotic at the start since everyone starts out at the same area. Idk how you would fix that.

The others are fine for me for the modes.

I do have one more concern.
Its about potting. Will the final bg come out with a fix number of pots per player like the old one, or can people stock it up?  I just worry it might be a battle for potting by rich players in bg. People can debate on this concern.

Edited by mendics

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Regarding the Healing/repair NPC and the storage option, what about making it 2 separate NPCs, one that heals/repairs with just a single click (no dialog needed, to speed things up) and one that opens up storage (with dialog)?

Once the BG supplies are out, could also consider a small vending machine there (in case of being able to buy supplies with silver coins), so if you run out of whatever basic supplies (HP/SP pots, AD and Glistenings) you can buy it during the match, without having to abandon the run.

Would be the case of making a separate room for the storage and vending machine? So you don't get warped back into the fight. Or just another mechanism.

Just a suggestion...

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These couple BG beta tests were fun as hell and it's surprising to see how smooth this second run was already. There weren't any visible bugs to me besides the fountain on FFA. I'd just like to make a few suggestions on the design part of it.


This one is just a pet peeve. It's possible to put land target and lasting damage skills (Demonstration, Fire Pillar, Crimson Fire Formation, traps with damage) around or on top of objective areas, that in some game modes (mostly capture the flag) would instantly kill a character who is in that /help state where your HP goes to 1 and you can't use skills or potions. While it's not an exploit since it's counterable with skills, waiting or other player eating it up (not be be expected since coordination is poor in random teams), it's a ridiculously cheap and safe way to stall a game, just put the skill there and hide/cloak/run around. I recall on our old BG at least safety wall and pneuma didn't work on the cell where the food depot was, probably not to stall games forever. Is it possible to put some restrictions on those cells?


Another thing, I didn't notice the class balancing mechanic Seiren said was already active. I haven't had time to look through Mickzie steam, but from memory at least a couple of times the only two clowns in the game were in the same team, or a party didn't have a bio while there were plenty playing, and no FCP is sad news in a game with bios /swt. Is the algorithm just sorting the classes at the queue but not after the game started?


Eventually you will have to decide on how cheap will be supplies given/sold and how that will impact the meta and  the playability. It's true what some people already mentioned, that with ridiculous amount of supplies a few classes when well geared will be near immortal against limited amount of DPS either a small or an unorganized BG party can deal. But one thing that has to be considered is that in Ragnarok, in a PvP setting, a game with Objectives is necessarily a potion spamming game, because the amount of damage a character can consistently deal per second is huge compared to what HP pools are, or even exceeds it. It's just the design of the game. Very restricted amount of pots will benefit cloaking and ranged classes. I recall on old BG, with 20 HP potions and nothing more, trying to protect my depot I would often stall the game for 40 minutes as sniper along with a HW, while the same thing happened at the other base. It was quick to drain attacker's potions most of the time, and without healing even profs couldn't counter magic+arrows for too long. It's one of the things that made old BG so unhospitable. That could be a problem especially considering how insane and intense are some of our game modes, like Triple Inferno, and on some of them you can't even try to ignore pvp to do objectives elsewhere. While I'm arguing in favor of generous pots (because I'd like play a big diversity of classes when BG is out rather than adapt to a more restricted meta), it's not a strong opinion and I'm fine with whatever you choose.


Some modes are lasting way too long, I think a GM already acknowledged that during the test. Would be nice if they were more dynamic. Also Tierra feels too big, it's mostly just personal preference. It works for some games like the MvP one, but the long walks are an unnecessary obstacle for Domination, and it also makes so Eye of the Storm has a lot less interception opportunity compared to Flags/Stones.


Would be cool if rewards were generous, considering the gears are account bound and don't compete in PvM. It would give people to opportunity to gear more different classes, get gears on a second account or try their luck refining them. Last time it was really broken the amount of time on average it took to get a single item. I could write a whole essay on how bad old BG design was and how we've have improved so much already, but this post already got out of hand, I'm sorry. =_=

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I have participated on both beta tests and this is my feedback:

- Repair/Healing NPC: the npc on the second test seems really better compared to the previous one.

- Free For All mode: there is a bug at respawn point were players could attack their own team mates and homunculus each other (already mentioned by other users before).

- Return Room: When I was playing as Sniper on Team Death Match mode, I noticed that I could use Ankle Snare skill inside Return Room and I accidentally got trapped myself. Well, that was not a big problem because it only has made me immovable for a few seconds. But I was wondering if others skills like Demonstration from Biochemist can be used there and if someone uses it, then after you respawn with low hp you gonna keep dying over and over inside Return Room due to Demonstration on the floor, and maybe never get back to Arena again. I suggest, if you can get hit by Demonstration from your own team mate in Return Room, then the use of Demonstration skill could be blocked in this place.

- Triple Inferno mode: Poor sorting algorithm, 2 biochemists in one team, while other teams had no biochemist.

Also I think these new BG modes will turns BG really fun compared to what it was before. I hope that BG can be launched on main server soon.

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Posted (edited)

The vanilla mode had:

Rush
conquest 
triple inferno
team deathmatch
capture the flag
stone control

Stuff missing from unres were:

bossnia
domination
eye of the storm

---

As for my 2 cents:

-There was not enough pots per round.
-Conquest had very little time for the attacking team. Even if you stream role all the gates, it would still be hard to capture the emp at that time.
 -This is an SE problem not an FE one.
 -Altho i think any team in the position of attacking will always be at a disadvantageous spot
-I don't approve of paying for repairs when the ads are free. So many gears get broken per round.

Edited by mendics

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I agree with mendics that Conquest still heavily favors the defending team. Barricade HP should be dropped a bit. I also like the logic that since AD sets are freely given, repairs should be too. Supplies are definitely too few, after a few minutes, everybody is just dropping to SG since nobody has hp pots left. The tiny amount of HP pots given extremely gimps melee classes since you are forced to wade through all the elemental damage flying around if you want to reach most targets. By the time you reach your objective, you've likely already wasted 1/3rd of your total pots for the entire round.

I really miss the Bossnia mode (I know a lot of other players enjoyed that one too).

Issues I noticed-

Could see damage in a mode (or two?)

Required to hold shift to cast single target attacks (seemed random sometimes it was fine in the same mode?)

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14 minutes ago, mendics said:

The vanilla mode had:

Rush
conquest 
triple inferno
team deathmatch
capture the flag
stone control

Stuff missing from unres were:

bossnia
domination
eye of the storm

Bossnia, Domination and EOS were removed from the rotation for the time being. They are a tad too big for the fast-paced action we are aiming for. We'll see what to do about these modes in the future.

---

As for my 2 cents:

-There was not enough pots per round.

Our idea right now is to let the Return Room give you a new supply of items every time you enter it. Possibly 50% of what you get at the round start.


-Conquest had very little time for the attacking team. Even if you stream role all the gates, it would still be hard to capture the emp at that time.

The timer is reset to 5 minutes remaining every time you break a gate or protection stone. Do you think we need additional time for the last step (the Emperium)?


 -This is an SE problem not an FE one.
 -Altho i think any team in the position of attacking will always be at a disadvantageous spot
-I don't approve of paying for repairs when the ads are free. So many gears get broken per round.

FCPs are also free :< Reason for the repairs being free is that people would just be able to bring their storage of broken gears into BG and get free repairs there rather than having to pay for them in town.

 

Just now, /人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ said:

I agree with mendics that Conquest still heavily favors the defending team. Barricade HP should be dropped a bit. I also like the logic that since AD sets are freely given, repairs should be too. Supplies are definitely too few, after a few minutes, everybody is just dropping to SG since nobody has hp pots left. The tiny amount of HP pots given extremely gimps melee classes since you are forced to wade through all the elemental damage flying around if you want to reach most targets. By the time you reach your objective, you've likely already wasted 1/3rd of your total pots for the entire round.

I really miss the Bossnia mode (I know a lot of other players enjoyed that one too).

Issues I noticed-

Could see damage in a mode (or two?)

Required to hold shift to cast single target attacks (seemed random sometimes it was fine in the same mode?)

Melee classes actually get additional HP potions compared to other classes. The amounts can be tweaked of course. As for resupplies, check my above reply.

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Yes people might abuse the repair in bg, but would people really stockpile their broken gears waiting for bg happy hour or when its active to just get a free repairs? I question the sanity of the person who will do that. Plus breaking gears is not that common, usually most who use that service are from the pvp community.  

I do think the last round should get more time, thats the part when theres a lot more of backtracking on the attacking, and less on the defending. Easy for them to regroup hard for the attacking. walking alone spends most of the time.

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3 minutes ago, GM Seiren said:

 

Melee classes actually get additional HP potions compared to other classes. The amounts can be tweaked of course. As for resupplies, check my above reply.

Yeah I realize they do but I think they need even more. The 50% resupply upon death idea will help with this.

For the large modes, would it be possible to just have them appear at an extremely low rate? Like once every 10 -15 rounds? That way it will keep BG (for the most part) fast paced without completely removing the modes.

For conquest, I think you just need to drop barricade HP down. If you want to change the timer, you should add an extra minute to each objective capped after the first barricade (like instead of +5 minutes after breaking the 2nd barricade, maybe add +6 minutes, and then +7 minutes after breaking the third). It takes a while to walk through the castle (and you better pray you have agi up in vanilla mode) so the more objectives you gain, the larger the defending enemy's advantage grows. The 50% resupply upon death thing should help with this a lot since the attack guild usually runs out of pots after the first barricade or so which results in a lot more death and a lot more walking. This is why the defending team generally wins this mode.

FCP being free only matters if the bio on your team chooses to FCP everybody (assuming you even HAVE a bio on your team). As Mendics mentioned, repairs are mainly used by pvp/WoE players so I can hardly see anybody stockpiling broken gear and entering bg to save 45k on repairs. The main people who need repairs in PvM are MvPers and the majority of them have Bonus Bundle active constantly (unlike pvp/woe players) so they get free repairs anwyay. If bios get free AD to destroy all high vit targets (and their gear) from a safe distance, I don't think free repairs is asking too much.

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I think asking for free repairs is asking too much for the reason stated earlier. :)

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Because of the double login protection, i couldn't play bg together with my bf today, because we share the same internet connection :( Would be very nice if you can find a solution for this.

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3 minutes ago, *Chloe* said:

Because of the double login protection, i couldn't play bg together with my bf today, because we share the same internet connection :( Would be very nice if you can find a solution for this.

There is a double login protection?

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Posted (edited)

Yeah ^^' we play together with different computers but the NPC only let one of us register (still got the supplies though) at the same time and you get a message, that register failed because of double login detected.

Edited by *Chloe*

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Regarding the free repair topic, I'm just not sure who would be able to abuse it... 

There are so little cases in which your gears are broken outside of BG/WOE/PvP

PVM wise, it's mostly ET or GMC and so on, and on those, people always have a bio for FCP, as a broken armor could result in a lost run. 

Let's say you manage to break your armor and wants a free repair, as stated. That person would need to have enough people in BG to enable 2 teams and a match start. The amount of time wasted on that is not worth the trouble, as 1 minute of farming will pay for that repair, against like 5 minutes of gathering people for BG. 

 

As you're saying about making these repairs not abusable by having a fee, makes us believe the price would be the same as normal npc, 15k. In one round of BG, people die like 10 times in 5 minutes. 150k per 5 minutes, making it cost 1,8m per hour of game play. For that amount, free supplies are not really free.

 

With that said, please consider once again the free repairs, or at least consider a way of making it free for avid BG players. 

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Why would repairing cost money outside bg and be free inside bg? That just doesn't make any sense. You don't get free repairs for woe or pvp either. That being said, we will not nix the costs. What could work is letting players repair their items for bg coins. 

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7 hours ago, GM Boreas said:

Why would repairing cost money outside bg and be free inside bg? That just doesn't make any sense. You don't get free repairs for woe or pvp either. That being said, we will not nix the costs. What could work is letting players repair their items for bg coins. 

I think most of us are thinking along the lines of, "If AD sets are given for free (and therefore gear is constantly being broken at no cost to the bio), the repair cost should be considered too". We aren't saying that repairs should always be free, it just feels like we are repairing much more often since bios can freely AD spam so the cost to play bio diminishes while the cost to playing a class with breakable gear grows. I do realize bios are given glistening coats as well but the I can count the number of times I was fcp'd during the open beta on one hand. Bios will, of course, fcp themselves but whoever else they fcp is left to their discretion. WoE is different since it is an organized group and the leaders instruct bios to FCP everybody.

That being said, I do like the idea of linking repairs to BG coins. Would it be possible to code something like "x amount of coins spent = free or reduced repair fees for a week" that only works on the BG repair NPC in game?

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Possible, but not on my list. It would work more along the lines of "pay x amount of bg coins and get x amount of free repairs". Right now we focus on other things tho and this has no priority in my opinion. Creators would also spam AD without the free pots and you'd have to repair your items. Plus, beta is beta, the final implementation might hand out only one bottle type to lower the costs instead of making it completely free. So let's not worry too much about repairs for now.

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1 hour ago, GM Boreas said:

Possible, but not on my list. It would work more along the lines of "pay x amount of bg coins and get x amount of free repairs". Right now we focus on other things tho and this has no priority in my opinion. Creators would also spam AD without the free pots and you'd have to repair your items. Plus, beta is beta, the final implementation might hand out only one bottle type to lower the costs instead of making it completely free. So let's not worry too much about repairs for now.

Yeah bios could spam ad without free pots but that means they are incurring a cost themselves since ad set is ~4k. If the final implementation lowered ad costs instead of making it completely free, it would help balance out the repair issue since people would be much more reluctant to play the class and blindly spam.

On another subject, I have a question. I'm not sure if you all plan on running BG happy hour but, if so, would it be possible to change the modes active during that timeframe? Seiren mentioned that Bossnia, Domination, and Eye of the Storm were removed from the rotation due to them being a bit longer than the other modes but I feel as though Bossnia was one of the crowd favorites among the testers. Would it be possible to have these modes in the loop at a low rate during normal hours and then remove them during happy hours? It might be a way to keep the modes active at times while keeping the super fast paced playstyle for the times when players want the quickest matches.

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Seeing as it's not about happy hour for those modes I don't understand why I would add them back with a special mechanic around it. The reason for their removal was already stated, the happy hour has nothing to do with it. That being said, once bg is implemented and has reached a somewhat popular status I wouldn't mind adding those modes back. However, right now they are not in the rotation. 

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No please dont do that, it will be pointless of my participate char class. I mean whats the point being WS , Bio or Other class that having gear that have chance of breaking opponent's weapon/armor. And the opponents will l can fix it for free . I mean , come on~ this is Battleground we talking about Not regular PVP. Even PVP didnt get any free "PVP Repair NPC"

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Posted (edited)

If there is a certain amount of free AD bottles why not give out an appropriate amount of free "Repair Scrolls" as well? Although I'm not sure if it would be easy to create such a scroll.

Or just tell people to bring Smiths because you know they do have the skill for a reason. You could even give out free BG repair materials but I guess this would either need modification of the skill to also accept BG catalysts or you need to give out standard ores which could be abused again. /wah

Edited by DoucheEnrique

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No please dont do that, it will be pointless of my participate char class. I mean whats the point being WS , Bio or Other class that having gear that have chance of breaking opponent's weapon/armor. And the opponents will l can fix it for free . I mean , come on~ this is Battleground we talking about Not regular PVP. Even PVP didnt get any free "PVP Repair NPC"

The point of breaking an enemy's gear isn't to break their bank, it's to kill them. Breaking a class' gear either makes it MUCH easier to kill them (if armor breaks) or makes them unable to even fight back (if weapon breaks). If you break somebody's gear, they will have to die to even be able to repair (or pray a whitesmith on their team has repair materials which is extremely unlikely). This means breaking gear means you've effectively rendered an enemy useless (in most cases). Saying battlegrounds isn't regular pvp and then mentioning pvp doesn't have a free repair npc kinda contradicts your point. Yeah battlegrounds IS different.

 

What's the point of WS or Bio you ask? Well... bio is the strongest ranged single target class (depending on enemy vit), has the ability to prevent allies' gear from breaking, can summon homunculous to deal magic damage, AND have the best AoE healing skill in the game. I'd say that class has many points.  Whitesmith have high elemental single target dps with a chance to stun any target below 97 vit, the ability to mass stun, and the ability to repair broken gear in combat.

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