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Ghaspar

SinX | Dual-Wielding (Basic Mechanics)

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For just autoattacking, you can use phreeoni / queen scaraba cards to make up for any hit that you need. However, if you plan to also include breaker / meteor assault into your gameplay, having some dex is still useful for faster cast times. As an extra note, dex also adds a small amount of aspd (1/4 as much as AGI).

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Posted (edited)

The reason why +ATK cards work like this is because they are not considered weapon ATK. The game does not keep track where the +ATK comes from it just slaps the number onto the ATK at a different stage.

This should clear up most of the questions how damage is calculated in general: https://irowiki.org/classic/Attacks#Physical_Attacks

Edited by DoucheEnrique

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Posted (edited)

(#13000)Jujube dagger's ATK should be slightly less than (#1207)Main Gauche's but yet its damage is higher in the main hand?

 

Does that apply in the same way for main-hand daggers with WAY more ATK like (#13027)Mes [3]?

 

.... And if so, what the fuck, videogame

 

EDIT:

 

Also, to see if the 80% of ATK maximum applies to flat number +ATK cards on the offhand weapon, one has to test autoattack with those cards.

The offhand weapon's atk doesn't apply at all in the listed skills, as well as no penalty applying to the cards' ATK in those skills.

Basically, some skills clearly and wholly disregard the 100% and 80% statement, so gotta test autoattack which apparently DOES apply that statement.

Edited by Phanman

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Phanman said:

(#13000)Jujube dagger's ATK should be slightly less than (#1207)Main Gauche's but yet its damage is higher in the main hand?

...

Basically, some skills clearly and wholly disregard the 100% and 80% statement, so gotta test autoattack which apparently DOES apply that statement.

  1. Look at the screenshot he's attacking Water Ball with a Wind Dagger so obviously the damage is higher.
     
  2. That's basically what the whole discussion in the other thread was about:All active skills disregard the weapon ATK in the off hand. +ATK cards are NOT weapon ATK thus they still add damage to skills even when slotted in the off hand. Also their damage should not be affected by the off hand damage penalty because as I said before the game does not know where the +ATK is coming from. It might as well come from headgear or footgear. To be honest I have not tested it myself but I would be surprised if it works any different for Autoattack than it does on skills.
Edited by DoucheEnrique

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Phanman said:

Basically, some skills clearly and wholly disregard the 100% and 80% statement, so gotta test autoattack which apparently DOES apply that statement.

The Double Attack section shows this. When the higher-attacking weapon is equipped in the Off Hand, the lesser damage output there is compared to when it is equipped in the Main Hand. But, if you mean to say with ATK card, I will add that into this section once I get the time to do so. Hopefully, at the soonest.

4 hours ago, Phanman said:

(#13000)Jujube dagger's ATK should be slightly less than (#1207)Main Gauche's but yet its damage is higher in the main hand?

You are viewing the Elemental Property section where the intention is to show that the Elemental Weapon should be equipped in the Main Hand which in this case is a Jujube Dagger (Jujube Dagger is Wind Property so the target was Water Ball).

Edited by Ghaspar

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Posted (edited)
Just now, Ghaspar said:

 

You are viewing the Elemental Property section where the intention is to show that the Elemental Weapon should be equipped in the Main Hand which in this case is a Jujube Dagger (Jujube Dagger is Wind Property so the target was Water Ball).

Yes, but does elemental dagger in the main hand result in higher damage than neutral prop weapon in the main hand, EVEN WHEN the neutral property weapon would far and away outclass the elemental dagger in damage, ATK-wise?

Such as would be the case with the Mes?

And if so, I am wondering what could possibly be the reason for that, especially considering the whole 80% ATK from the off-hand and all.

Since I am assuming elemental weapon in either hand gives the elemental property to both attacks, I have no idea why it should be the case.

(But maybe it is still the case even then, because Ragnarok Online is a very strange videogame.

Or indeed, perhaps the elemental weapon in one hand does not give its elemental property to the other-hand weapon's attack, and the elemental weapon's damage is  always calculated separately. 

That would mean in the off-hand the elemental weapon is subject to the 80% maximum, sure, so the only damage multiplied by elemental advantage is decreased by 20%, but theoretically some weapon combinations would still result in better damage with your higher ATK neutral prop weapon in the main hand.)

 

_

Just now, Ghaspar said:

if you mean to say with ATK card,

 

1 hour ago, Phanman said:

to see if the 80% of ATK maximum applies to flat number +ATK cards

yes

 

_

Just now, DoucheEnrique said:
  1. [...]
  2. [...] I would be surprised if it works any different for Autoattack than it does on skills

Always worth double-checking, especially as Ragnarok Online is a very strange videogame.

And I mean, the 80% damage modifier ALREADY works differently on autoattack from how it does on skills.

I like both theory and practice, but sometimes a gram of practice is worth a kilogram of theory.

_

Edited by Phanman

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Posted (edited)

It's always good to have queries. Makes the OP add more details to the guide. That's why this build separates itself from the rest because of the mysteries involved.

However, @Phanman, your input has come to attention and is a valuable one. I will add more details into this, and might do a math for the benefit of all.

But, today is just, "Oh man, I wish I could do it right now" moment for me. IRL is really taking a toll on me. 

Just wait a bit... 

Edited by Ghaspar

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Wow.

According to that formula it certainly appears as though even with Mes, the elemental weapon shoud be in the main hand.

Capping the ELEMENTAL MODIFIER for all the damage at 80% of what it should be, so wind vs water3 is only 1.6 instead of 2... really has a crippling effect.

 

Who'd have thought they would not only cap the damage of the off-hand weapon at 80%, but also cap the elemental modifier at that percentage of what it should be?

And then apply that elemental modifier to all the damage done, including the damage done by the non-elemental weapon...

Ragnarok Online is a very strange videogame.

 

I wonder what the calculations are when it comes to the icepick effect; eg with Icepick and Excalibur in Geffenia.

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This is because the element property of the weapon is innately-endowed (not compounded from any external source) in the weapon. So, if you put the weapon in the Off Hand the element property will receive the 80% penalty. 

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Posted (edited)

...Oh, and wait a minute...

So with Left Hand mastery 1 or 2...  it should end up with elemental weapons in the off hand being actually useless, even harmful on elemental def below 2.

The damage of the weapon would cap at 40% or 50% of what it should be, but the multiplier for element would also cap at 40% or 50% of what it should be.

So even where the multiplier should be 2, the max it could become... would be 1; ie the same damage.

As to elemental defence of a level BELOW 2, it'd be actually harmful to have the correct element!

EG wind vs water 1, instead of a multiplier of 1.75 you'd get a multiplier of 0.7 (40% of 1.75; Left Hand Mastery 1), or of 0.875 (50% of 1.75; LHM 2).

And with Right-hand mastery ZERO, assuming it works same as left hand mastery, endows on the MAIN hand should also end up being totally useless.

Because eg wind vs water1, you'd get a multiplier of half 1.75, ie 0.875, from Right Hand Mastery Zero.

...And thus in both cases the CORRECT elemental weakness on elemental def below 2 should result in damage LOWER than neutral?

?????????????

What The Fuck, Videogame?

 

 

1297162931_MybrainisfullofRagnarok.thumb.png.d1ee72c85a3e77fd49c3b79c88772843.png

 

Although, with that having been said, sometimes 1.5X is just shorthand for "add half of X to X".

In that case there would certainly still be an increase in damage, if the elemental ADDITION is what was reduced, rather than the whole actually multiplied by a figure reduced accordingly.

It'd be the (incredibly substantial) difference between "Add 30% of the damage, not 75% of the damage" and "Multiply the damage by 0.7, not 1.75".

 

Edited by Phanman

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exactly. and THAT is why you call it Right-Hand or Left-Hand Mastery because the game considers you ignorant to it by default which needs mastery. Otherwise, you'll suffer for what you've just said.

However, no one would do that anyway. 😁

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Phanman said:

...Oh, and wait a minute...

*lots of rambling*

/sigh You are overcomplicating things and pretty much confusing yourself.

  • Using dual wield gives you penalties to damage and ASPD to balance the ability to get 4 more weapon cards.
  • The damage penalty is just a multiplication factor to each hands damage. Mastery changes the number of the factor to 1x for Main hand and 0.8x for off hand.
  • Element of the weapon is just another factor to each hands damage.
  • Apply basic Math: Weapon DMG * Hand's Penalty Factor * Elemental Factor = done

There isn't anything strange here IMO.

You could argue that RO is incoherent about how it handles damage. Like having different "flavors" of ATK and handling each of them slightly differently. Base ATK from STR, Weapon ATK, Upgrade Bonuses, direct ATK bonus from cards and skills. But this is not a problem of dual wield but its own topic.

Edited by DoucheEnrique

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Posted (edited)
Just now, DoucheEnrique said:

/sigh You are overcomplicating things and pretty much confusing yourself.

  • Apply basic Math: Weapon DMG * Hand's Penalty Factor * Elemental Factor = done

There isn't anything strange here IMO.

[...] But this is not a problem of dual wield but its own topic.

If having the correct elemental property to deal more damage makes you deal less damage, that is strange beyond strange.

If having the correct elemental property to deal more damage does NOT make you deal less damage under the conditions I laid out above, the formula may be slightly off, and may well be so in precisely the manner I described.

Considering the uniqueness of the situation if the first line is correct, it would certainly be an oddity germane to dual-weilding.

Edited by Phanman

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Posted (edited)

maybe citing a sample computation will help us understand what you were exactly thinking. /ok

Just to note: the game actually obliges you to maximize Hands mastery to avoid the said penalties. 

And, c'mon guys, the topic is already complicated. Let's not make it more complicated to avoid readers confusion. 😉

Edited by Ghaspar

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ghaspar said:

maybe citing a sample computation will help us understand what you were exactly thinking. /ok

Yes, of course!

On 4/16/2019 at 11:58 AM, Ghaspar said:

How does the Elemental Property work when it is in the Main Hand and Off Hand? I've made calculations on this and here are my findings:



Legend:
MC: Main Character's ATK
MH: Main Hand Weapon's ATK (+Refines, if any)
OH: Off Hand Weapon's ATK (+Refines, if any)
EP: Element Property's Multiplier

 

1. When Elemental Weapon is equipped in the Main Hand:
Damage Output = (MC+1*MH+0.80*OH)*EP

Applying the formula from the weapons we used:

(171+1*39+0.80*43) = 488, Double Attack then gives = 976 (See 2nd Screenshot)

 

2. When Elemental Weapon is equipped in the Off Hand:
Damage Output = (MC+1*MH+0.80*OH)*EP*0.80

Applying the formula from the weapons we used:

(171+1*43+0.80*39) = 490*0.80 = 392, Double Attack then gives = 784 (See 1st Screenshot)

Recommendation: To avoid getting the Elemental Property have the 80% penalty from the Left-Hand Mastery skill, the Elemental Weapon is recommended to be equipped in the Main Hand.

 

Instead of worrying about an elemental weapon at all, if we have a neutral weapon in both hands, it seems that the offhand penalty is applied only once, to the damage contributed by the off-hand weapon.

Now, that makes perfect sense.

 

When you have a main hand weapon that is elemental and an off-hand weapon that is neutral, it seems that the offhand penalty is AGAIN applied only once, to the damage contributed by the off-hand weapon.

Again that makes perfect sense.

 

But as soon as you put the elemental property weapon into the off-hand, the elemental property modifier gets applied TWICE, ie once at the stage of calculating the off-hand weapon's actual damage, which is 80% of its max, and then AGAIN at the stage of multiplying the whole damage by the elemental modifier.

Now that's wacky as hell, and if it's correct, Ragnarok is just being wonky as usual.

 

This becomes most obvious when the result of the (Hand Mastery Damage modifier*the Elemental property modifier) is a number LESS than one, as contemplated in my post above, because as icepick shows us [in case we didn't know from basic maths], multiplication by a greater than one figure is an increase, while multiplication by a LESS THAN ONE fraction IS A DECREASE.

 

To create such a situation, we just have to switch some numbers in the very same equation you have so helpfully provided.

 

We'll use the very numbers I had been talking about in my post. 

Instead of a modifier of 2 from wind offensive vs water3 defensive, we'll start with a modifier of 1.75 from wind offensive vs water1 defensive (eg jujube vs the lowly poring).

Instead of a modifier of 0.8 from left hand mastery maxed, we'll use a modifier of 0.4 from left hand mastery 1.

Thus instead of LHM modifier*Elemental modifier giving a greater-than-1 multiplier to increase our damage multiplicand, ie 0.8*2 =1.6, we will have the LHM modifier*elemental modifier resulting in a LESS THAN ONE fraction to DECREASE our damage multiplicand, ie 0.4*1.75 = 0.7.

 

So if the weapon is in the main hand, INSTEAD of (171+1*39+0.80*43) = 244.4 multiplied by elemental modifier of 2 = 488.8, we will have:

(171+1*39+0.4*43) = 227.2, which will be multipled by elemental modifier of 1.75 = 397.6

 

And if the weapon is in the off hand, instead of (171+1*43+0.80*39) = 245.2, to be multiplied by elemental modifier of 2 = 490.4, THEN to be multiplied by mastery modifier of 0.8 AGAIN, = 392, we will have

(171+1*43+0.4*39) = 229.6, which will be multiplied by elemental modifier of 1.75 = 401.8, then to be multiplied by mastery modifier of 0.4 AGAIN, = 160.72.

 

Comparing both as neutral, which apparently has an elemental modifier of 1, unaffected by the left hand mastery situation, you'd see that a 39 ATK neutral weapon in the off hand would result in higher damage, because there is no multiplication by a LESS THAN ONE FRACTION going on.  Hence:

(171+1*43+0.4*39) = 229.6, which has no further elemental OR MASTERY modifier to undergo, and hence ends up higher than 160.72.

 

But OBVIOUSLY a correct elemental modifier should always INCREASE damage, because you're hitting with the CORRECT ELEMENT.

 

So the fact that it wouldn't in this case is just wonked the fuck out.

 

(And if the correct elemental weapon in the off-hand with LHM 1 vs defensive element 1 does still result in higher damage compared to a neutral one of the same ATK,then something may be off about the forumla, for example the bonus damage from elements may be added into the calculation rather than representing a strictly multiplicative modifier.)

Edited by Phanman

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Phanman said:

Yes, of course!

 

Instead of worrying about an elemental weapon at all, if we have a neutral weapon in both hands, it seems that the offhand penalty is applied only once, to the damage contributed by the off-hand weapon.

*starts going off track here already*

The dual wield penalty is ALWAYS only applied once... it's "factor" times "weapon's damage" ... i cant even follow your thoughts anymore ... =/

Edited by DoucheEnrique

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Posted (edited)
Just now, DoucheEnrique said:

The dual wield penalty is ALWAYS only applied once... it's "factor" times "weapon's damage" ... i cant even follow your thoughts anymore ... =/

But look at Ghaspar's formula, and look at how it produces the correct result as demonstrated in his screenshots.

 

In that formula, and as explained by the goodly gentleman, it is CLEARLY applied more than once.

 

Perhaps there is something wonky in that formula, or more likely, there is just one more thing that is, as usual, wonky in this videogame.

 

Even if it was applied once, 0.4*1.75 is still a less than 1 modifier, so the correct element would still decrease damage, which is the main point.

 

And if it didn't, something would still not be accounted for, which is the subsidiary point.

Edited by Phanman

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OK now you've done it Phanneh ... I'll do another test vid /wah

... but this has to wait till tomorrow.

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Posted (edited)

Hi Brother @Phanman & @DoucheEnrique!

Formula for Off Hand Elemental Property Multiplier has been updated: /gawi

Off Hand (Level 1 to Level 4) Screenshots (Level 5 already done in the guide above)

Spoiler
Level 1 Level 2 Level 3 Level 4
250544565_Elemental3(forPhanmanL1).jpg.9a489fb79bd405b9c76741d7bbfa59f1.jpg 240375096_Elemental3(forPhanmanL2).jpg.6dde4784d5153778c1f493d2777d442f.jpg 1021674020_Elemental3(forPhanmanL3).jpg.43c9df613b8fda0750302279c2021363.jpg 142093073_Elemental3(forPhanmanL4).jpg.9f40641f6d782ae152cfc2d0d3b60b87.jpg

Observations:

Off Hand (Level 1) Mastered only 40% ATK Double Attack Damage Output = 563
Off Hand (Level 2) Mastered only 50% ATK Double Attack Damage Output = 603
Off Hand (Level 3) Mastered only 60% ATK Double Attack Damage Output = 643
Off Hand (Level 4) Mastered only 70% ATK Double Attack Damage Output = 683
Off Hand (Level 5) Mastered only 80% ATK Double Attack Damage Output = 722

Equipping the Elemental Weapon in the Off Hand is still beneficial, carrying the Element multiplier over to the overall damage output. However, since you have not mastered that side of your hand (which you never will, given 80% even at max), the innately-endowed Element Property of that weapon will suffer a certain factor of: 0.29-0.07*Off Hand Skill Level.

The Revised Formula when Elemental Weapon is equipped in the Off Hand then is:

Damage Output = (MC+1*MH+OHP*OH)*EP*[OHP+(0.29-0.07*Off Hand Skill Level)]

Note: Guide has been edited accordingly.

/gawi/gawi/gawi

Edited by Ghaspar
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thanks for this @Ghaspar! we, the few DD sinx's of tRO, would like to show our appreciation for shedding light on this very enigmatic build. 

like i always say, may the daggers be with you. 

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4 minutes ago, -Tristram said:

thanks for this @Ghaspar! we, the few DD sinx's of tRO, would like to show our appreciation for shedding light on this very enigmatic build. 

like i always say, may the daggers be with you. 

Had to 😊

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I have no idea whatsoever where (0.29-0.07*Off Hand Skill Level) came from, so you lost me there : O

Additionally that seems to result in multiplying by a negative value at off-hand skill level 5, since you'd be multiplying by( 0.29 minus 0.35), ie negative 0.06 so... I may be misunderstanding what the formula is saying there.

_____________

But regarding the earlier formula, I had been talking about a correct elemental attack vs level 1 defence (eg jujube in off-hand vs a poring) and comparing it with a neutral weapon of the same or very similar ATK in the off-hand, to see which one gave more damage, at levels 1 or 2 of Left Hand Mastery.

(Or even such a weapon in the main hand with level 0 right hand mastery)

Against elemental defence level 3, like the soccer balls, the multiplier remains positive so it would be beneficial as compared with a neutral weapon.

(Specifically; the multiplier would be 0.4*2 with level 1 left hand mastery, which is the larger-than-1 figure of 1.6).

It is against level 1 elemental defence that the original multiplier is lower, so the final result would theoretically be a less-than-1 multiplier of 0.4*1.75, ie 0.7.

____

I may get off my lazy butt and make an assassin just to try this out, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

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      I will be hosting a PvP Tournament Best-of-Class on 2-16-19 at 12:00 PM (Eastern Time).
      Location: Private PvP Room (Spectators welcome)
       
      About the tournament: First we will have each class will play 1 v 1 until we have one who beats all from the same class. The winner will be Best-of-Class. This will happen for all the classes. Once we have a Best-of-Class player for each class, there will be a final elimination round* for those who are Best-of-Class! The winner of this will be the PvP Champion.
       
      *The final round depends on the classes we will have available at the time of the tournament (To be fair with other classes).
       
      Rules:
      - No health consumables (cwp, cakes, etc.)
      - No pre-buffs.
      - MVP Items are allowed (Sorry vanilla players!)
       
      Prizes:
      1) Each Best-of-Class champion will receive 5 TC.
      2) The PvP Champion will receive 20 TC and a Very Rare Costume.
       
      Lets make this happen people!
      Leave IGN and class here for participation.
       
      **Note: If a GM can help me out with this (PvP Map) to avoid spectators from attacking each other will be nice! If not its all good we can use a !duel map...
    • By Spyros
      Hi guys,
      What do you think about this SBK DD sinx PVP build? 
       
      LKH
      Evil wing ears [BK] [STR+ 1]
      Chewing Bubble Gum
      Excalibur
      Main Gauche [Doppel, Doppel, TG, Queen Scaraba]
      Bone Plate [GR]
      Diablos Manteau [Deviling]
      Sleipnir [GEC]
      Brising [Ifrit] x2
       
      I'm not too sure about the stats distribution but I'm thinking something like 99Int, 99dex
       
      First time sinx here, go easy on me please
       
      P.S. From my understanding reading https://wiki.talonro.com/After_Cast_Delay ,  higher ASPD will reduce the after cast delay of SBK, so I'm hoping I could spam SBK without Bragi with this build
       
      Cheers.
       
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